Laudetur Iesus Christus! It strikes me that our dialogue is going around in circles. For this reason, I shall make this the last comment in the exchange.

Right now, there is a raging debate in Catholic circles concerning whether and to what degree the Vatican II and post-Vatican II changes stand in continuity with tradition. The different participants in this debate are not only “liberals” and “conservatives.” Although there are liberals and conservatives in the discussion, the various positions represented are more subtlety distinguished than that.

I don’t care to attempt to explain that debate here; I only reference it in order to tell you that the things you are asking about touch upon an in-house discussion going on in the Catholic Church. We here at Saint Benedict Center believe that the profound confusion that is universally acknowledged in the Catholic Church today has its root in a betrayal of tradition, a rejection of dogma, as well as a substantial alteration of praxis that has robbed Catholics of their age-old certitudes. How much of all this can be blamed on the work of the non-infallible documents of Vatican II and subsequent Roman interventions is being debated.

Most specifically, the defined and therefore unalterable dogma that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church has been betrayed in the name of ecumenism. That is a problem for Catholics, who are confused about their faith; but it is also a problem for non-Catholics, who are getting an awful lot of vague pseudo-charity from Catholics, but not the strong truths of the Catholic Church.

The bottom line is that dogma does not change. Therefore, we can’t throw Trent out in the name of Vatican II. I’m not interested in commenting on the activities of the Bishops of Minnesota. I know little of them. I do know that many of the things done in the name of ecumenism have given people the impression that the Church has changed her perennial, infallible, and binding teaching that comes to her from the Holy Ghost. That itself constitutes scandal, and it is evidenced by the fact that you seem to think that Catholics are free to abandon the “bastions of Trent.”

May the Advent of Our Lord Jesus Christ bring you many graces, so that you may embrace his true religion.

The Vatican’s web site is not infallible. There is very much on it that hasn’t the authority of a Papal definition or that of an Ecumenical Council. To reply to your question, the document is there, presumably, because someone in authority thought it a good idea to post it there. That does not mean that the document is 1) free from all doctrinal error, or 2) a clear expression of Catholic teaching.

For the record, Mortalium Animos is on the Vatican’s web site — http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_19280106_mortalium-animos_en.html . That’s the document I quoted earlier:

“So, Venerable Brethren, it is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics: for the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it, for in the past they have unhappily left it. To the one true Church of Christ, we say, which is visible to all, and which is to remain, according to the will of its Author, exactly the same as He instituted it.”

“2 If the words of JDDJ do not represent the current teaching of the church then who’s words are they?”

They are the opinions of the Catholics and Lutherans who were engaged in the dialogue. It was a “joint declaration” between them.

“3) Do you believe that JDDJ was drafted by both Roman Catholics and Christians of the Reformation Tradition not acting in good faith?”

I have no idea of their good faith or not. It is frankly irrelevant to my opinion of the document. One can, in good faith, make lots of errors. In the realm of doctrine, objective criteria are what matter.

I reject your correction of my theology. The Catholic Church is not a “denomination,” like the various Protestant denominations. It is the Mystical Body of Christ. That is why there is no salvation outside her.

Again, Martin Luther has nothing to teach me, a loyal son of Christ’s Church. Citing Augustine as a witness for Luther is an attempt at squaring a circle. Melancthon accused Luther of “Manichean delirium,” and Luther’s own editions of Augustine were marked up with the Revolutionary’s negative criticisms of the Doctor of Grace. Further, Augustine believed in free will, whereas Luther rejected it. Augustine also believed in the authority of the Catholic Church — not the nebulous “church catholic” to which you have referred several times.

By the grace of God, I shall never see any wisdom in Martin Luther, with this one qualification: As I already said, whatever he said that was true was already there in the Scriptures, the Fathers, the Doctors; all he added was heresy and debauchery.

The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of Truth. His grace leads to Catholic Unity, a unity I hope you embrace before you meet Jesus Christ the Just Judge.

If the words of the JDDJ are not truthful why would you find them on the Vatican’s own website?
If the words do not represent the current teaching of the church then who’s words are they?
The JDDJ may not be authoritative to you; but it speaks volumes of the true Spirit blowing free in the church catholic today.
Do you believe that JDDJ was drafted by both Roman Catholics and Christians of the Reformation Tradition not acting in good faith?

Consider Section 3 of the JDDJ
3. The Common Understanding of Justification

14.The Lutheran churches and the Roman Catholic Church have together listened to the good news proclaimed in Holy Scripture. This common listening, together with the theological conversations of recent years, has led to a shared understanding of justification. This encompasses a consensus in the basic truths; the differing explications in particular statements are compatible with it.

15.In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.

16.All people are called by God to salvation in Christ. Through Christ alone are we justified, when we receive this salvation in faith. Faith is itself God’s gift through the Holy Spirit who works through word and sacrament in the community of believers and who, at the same time, leads believers into that renewal of life which God will bring to completion in eternal life.

Brother Andre there’s no need to stand behind the battlements of Trent any longer. No Lutheran is attacking you. You are my brother in Christ and I reach out to you as sinner saved by grace too to share in conversation about the Good News with you. In my home state, Minnesota, Lutheran and Catholic bishops meet anually for retreat just as they have since 1977. Check out this article: http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/133047168.html?page=all&prepage=1&c=y

Brother Andre if you are ever in Minnesota I would be delighted to study scripture and pray with you. In my town a group of pastors of 5 different denominations meet every week on Tuesday at 9:30. If you are here I’d be glad to pour you a cup of coffee and offer you a fistfull of peanuts. Heck if you stuck arround long enough I’d buy you lunch.

I am reminded of Luther’s wisdom. “…thank God, a seven-year-old child knows what the church is, namely, holy believers and sheep who hear the voice of their Shepherd.” Martin Luther, The Smalcald Articles: 3, XII, 2-3. Theodore G. Tappert, The Book of Concord : The Confessions of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, ( Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 2000, c1959)

Advent Blessings to you and yours, your Brother in Christ.
John

JDDJ is not Church teaching. Trent is. Therein lies the difference. And how few today know the difference between binding dogma and documents of lesser authority.

What the Council of Trent says about the “gifts of the Reformers” is what I hold!

Nos, cum prole pia, benedicat Virgo Maria!

I ascent to the fact that Lutherans do not deny the divinity of Christ. I did not say that they did so. My questions touching upon where you put the “center” of the Gospel were intended to illustrate that belief in the atoning death of Christ is neither the only Christian dogma necessary for salvation, nor an impenetrable barrier to heresy on other points.

Your second assertion, that “The Joint Declaration of the Doctrine of Justification (JDDJ) created a healthy starting point for dialogue between Roman Catholic Christians and Christians of the Reformation Traditions (both Lutheran and Reformed)” is not something I would assent to. This is because the document, like so many in the ecumenical genre, sidesteps the real issues. Neither does it fully and adequately represent the authoritative and binding dogmatic interventions of the Council of Trent.

You are dealing with a “traditionalist,” here, Pastor Heille, and we lament the departure in recent years from the wisdom of Pope Pius XI, who summarized all tradition on the point when he wrote this in Mortalium Animos: “The unity of Christians cannot be otherwise obtained than by securing the return of the separated to the one true Church of Christ from which they once unhappily withdrew. To the one true Church of Christ, We say, that stands forth before all, and that by the will of its Founder will remain forever the same as when He Himself established it for the salvation of all mankind.” http://catholicism.org/mortalium-animos.html

For all that, I do believe that divisions ought to be handled with love, as you say. Evangelical charity demands truth — even the hard truths of the Gospel — and it also demands “doing the truth in charity” (Ephesians 4:15). (One of those good works!)

But these are perennial truths, not time conditioned. The Catholic saints, like Saint Peter Canisius or Saint Francis de Sales, who worked for the conversion of Protestants back to the Faith of their fathers, were men of profound charity.

So, when I tell you that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church and that you need to be in communion with the Holy Father in order to be saved, it is an act of charity, not of hatred.

This Christmas, may the Divine Babe of Bethlehem bring you to cleave to His Mystical Body, the Catholic Church!

I fear that you and I could begin directing comments past each other right now. But that is not my desire. There are 2 points I would like to assert and I will gladly continue in dialogue if you will ascent to both,

1) Lutherans don’t deny Christ’s divinity. We recognize the cross on which God the Son died to set us free as the very central act of the Triune God’s saving plan for His fallen creation. This is the heart of the Gospel, what we Lutherans call justification, for which I gladly give all, and I believe you gladly give all, too.

2) The Joint Declaration of the Doctrine of Justification (JDDJ) created a healthy starting point for dialogue between Roman Catholic Christians and Christians of the Reformation Traditions (both Lutheran and Reformed)

Let us follow the lead of those, whose cooperative work on the JDDJ has prepared a way for dialogue past centuries old condemnations. http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html.

In particular please consider the many substantial efforts, some are included in the 3rd paragraph of the JDDJ’s preamble, to create dialogue between us on matters of faith. There have been may other worthy efforts too.

Clearly our churches are coming to be a better understanding of each other. There were real divisions in the past between us and still are. Sadly many on both sides failed to regard one another as brothers and sisters in Christ over the past half millenia.
God have mercy on them and on all of us today. AMEN

Divisions ought be dealt with in love today, rather than in vitriol on the internet, or in any other venue. Christ died for you and for whosoever believes in him. The Savior’s words in John 3 are sure and true and are not limited by our whims but by the soveriegn choice of almighty God, and Jesus has made it clear that he died for whosoever believes.
For that Good News let all God’s people give thanks and praise. AMEN.

Looking at the world and my congregation today I believe that the people of God in our day have no desire to fight with one another any longer; rather they seek out mutual understanding. There is a better way to be a servants to the One who saves sinners at the cost of His own life.

Peace and Advent Blessings to You
Pastor John B. Heille
Grace Lutheran Church, Fairmont MN